Talk:George Pell

Summary of this archbishops Paige

The summary of this archbishops Paige is seriously lacking. He has been accused of child sex abuse and went through a criminal trial. He’s been accused by more than one person. And he’s also been accused of covering up for other priest committing child sex abuse. This is not mentioned at all. I can’t lie, it makes me suspicious that someone might be removing edits to include this information and then locking the page to prevent it from being done now. There’s pending edits that mention his child sex abuse but how do we get those confirmed? Matthewi (talk) 6:25, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

The points you are trying to make here appear to be based entirely on your intuition and your impression of how Wikipedia operates. Wikipedia has some very important guidelines that are relevant here, but you haven’t mentioned them, so we assume you haven’t taken them into account. If you wish to make your points in a persuasive manner you should study WP:PERPETRATOR, WP:NPOV, WP:Verify and WP:Notability (people) very closely, and explain how the missing information is consistent with these guidelines. Dolphin (t) 09:36, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

@Dolphin51 Having read the policies you link to I see no relevancy to the issue of writing an appropriate lead section (assuming @User:Mathewi reference to "summary"), MOS:LEADBIO stipulates that relevant controversies should not be suppressed and that a lead must accurately reflect the content of article in its entirety. Given the content of this article, a neutral, evenly weighted lead section should reduce focus on his career and include substantial details of accusations, response, judgements and cultural legacy. James Bateaux (talk) 13:10, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

James Bateaux Thanks for your comments. You are at a disadvantage arguing in the abstract. I suggest you use your sandbox or this Talk page to show all interested Users what you have in mind for the lead of this article - write a draft of a revised lead and include the substantial details of accusations, response, judgements and cultural legacy. If you use your sandbox you can then use this Talk page to alert interested Users and invite their comments. If your draft wins the approval of interested Users it can be pasted into the article without amendment; if Users make comments and suggestions you can proceed as you wish. Dolphin (t) 06:32, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Naming prominent persons in relation to Pell’s funeral service

We have seen a little edit warring over the naming of prominent persons who attended Pell’s funeral service in Sydney, and who did not attend. Hythlodayau and BoldGnome both deleted the information in its entirety, called it trivial and described it as a list of attendees.

If this was a list of attendees it would include Mrs Gladys Briggs of Wollongong. It did not! It is the naming of certain prominent figures who did attend the funeral service, where those figures are notable; and the naming of others who did not attend where one would expect them to have done so, thereby making it all the more notable. This underscores the fact that Pell remains a controversial figure, even after death.

The matter deserves a mature discussion on this Talk page. Users who have a view on the matter are encouraged to record their views here. Dolphin (t) 00:51, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for opening this discussion. Just quickly, there was no edit warring (unless you consider your own edit as edit warring, which it isn't.). The list (no, it does not need to be complete in order to be a list) of attendees to his funeral is trivial. As I said in my edit, the attendance of Prime Ministers (and for that matter Opposition Leaders) probably does cross the line into being important information. Where it gets to Matt Canavan, Dan Tehan, Don Farrell, Alan Jones, Paul Kelly, and Nicholas Moore is where it really crosses into the "Who cares? Will readers in 10 years care? Probably not" territory. And the list of people who didn't attend his funeral, cited to a single sentence in one source.... I don't like the man either, and I get the motivation to include the prominent people who snubbed his funeral, but we're here to build an encylopedia. BoldGnome (talk) 01:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Attendees and non-attendees at the funeral should only be mentioned if their actions were different from what would normally be expected. For example, Tony Abbott would have been expected by everybody to attend, and he did. There is nothing exceptional there, so mentioning him is rather pointless. The same goes for other high profile Catholics. If someone didn't attend and gave a reason for non-attending that included criticising Pell, that too would be worth a mention. Otherwise, keep the lists to a minimum. HiLo48 (talk) 02:14, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the list is too long: the set of those who attended could stop after Dutton. I'm not sure whether any of those who did not attend gave a reason, but if they did I expect it was, appropriately, very brief. Errantios (talk) 13:15, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

There being no further comment, I have made the stop after Dutton. Errantios (talk) 23:31, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

That's better. I still feel that Tony Abbott hardly deserves a mention. Being a Catholic himself, and a very loud supporter of Pell, it would have been news if the hadn't attended. HiLo48 (talk) 23:41, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

@Errantios "And the list of people who didn't attend his funeral, cited to a single sentence in one source.... I don't like the man either, and I get the motivation to include the prominent people who snubbed his funeral, but we're here to build an encylopedia." Do you disagree? "the current Australian Prime Minister"? Be reasonable. BoldGnome (talk) 01:04, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

The list might be put the other way around: that almost every one of the most prominent public figures who would have been expected to attend did not, while some other major public figures did. The reason to opt out was presumably Pell's poor showing in relation to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse, whose findings had been nationally traumatic. But I guess that this way around would be the reverse of the usual way and so could look biased. However, I would shorten "the current Australian Prime Minister" to "the prime minister" and put him after the GG (who would also be decapitalised). Errantios (talk) 07:09, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

This suggested "expectation" element is original research unless you can find a sources that they were expected to attend but did not. To be clear about "the current Prime Minister" point, if it were to be included (which it shouldn't, based on the currently provided source), it should refer to the actual person who didn't attend (Anthony Albanese). The same goes for whoever the Governor General was at the time.

"The reason to opt out was presumably Pell's poor showing in relation to the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse" and here I was presuming that it was because of the (quashed) child sex abuse conviction. Which is why Wikipedia bases its content on verifiable facts reported in reliable sources, not a bit of "here's what I reckon". BoldGnome (talk) 07:22, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't proposing any unsupported assumptions, only offering some explanations relevant to the present purpose. In the same way, I will now add that I think it very doubtful that any of the opters-out would have referred to the quashed conviction as their reason; the presumption of innocence remained. I'm happy to name both opters-in and opters-out. The number of citations doesn't matter if they are reliable and the Sydney Morning Herald is a good source, although I have added the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) report.

So, everyone, how does this look?

Leading public figures who attended the funeral service included former prime ministers Tony Abbott and John Howard, and federal opposition leader Peter Dutton. However, other leading public figures did not attend: Governor-General David Hurley, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, NSW Governor Margaret Beazley, NSW Premier Dominic Perrottet, NSW opposition leader Chris Minns and Lord Mayor of Sydney Clover Moore. LGBT groups, survivors of child sexual abuse and their supporters protested in Hyde Park, opposite the cathedral. Errantios (talk) 23:28, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that has the right tone. HiLo48 (talk) 23:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

The proposal from Errantios looks good to me. I’m in favour of acknowledging that there was a prominent figure or two who might have been expected to attend, but who did not. This is significant as it supports the idea that Pell was a controversial person. Dolphin (t) 04:18, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I maintain that in order to include public figures who did not attend, we need a reliable source which verifies that there was an expectation that the public figure would attend (i.e. being invited) and a notable reason for their non-attendance (as opposed to, for example, unavailability). We don't have any reliable sources supporting either, so the inclusion of that list of people to "support the idea that Pell was a controversial person" is original research and in violation of Wikipedia's policies. But I can see that the local consensus here is pretty adamant and I really don't care enough about this matter to take it to Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard, so I'm withdrawing from this discussion, but this note may be helpful for future editors seeking to improve the article. BoldGnome (talk) 04:30, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

The proposed addition does not include the words you object to. HiLo48 (talk) 04:54, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

"However, other leading public figures did not attend: Governor-General David Hurley, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, NSW Governor Margaret Beazley, NSW Premier Dominic Perrottet, NSW opposition leader Chris Minns and Lord Mayor of Sydney Clover Moore." This does in fact appear to include public figures who did not attend without sources verifying that they were expected to attend and that there was a noteworthy reason for their non-attendance. BoldGnome (talk) 04:56, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Why is it notable that the Lord Mayor of Sydney didn't attend the funeral? Is it an ex-officio act for her to attend the funerals of previous Catholic Archbishops of Sydney?

Why isn't it notable that the Archbishop Emeritus of Melbourne was absent? Denis Hart and George Pell were classmates, and friends, and close collaborators. Here is a public figure one would expect to be present.

Nothing in this discussion really counters my point that the list is arbitrary and non-encyclopaedic. But honestly, who cares? It's not important. Keep the list. Call me an "edit pacifist." Make tea, not war. Hythlodayau (talk) 05:18, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Because it's really important that we make readers understand that George Pell was a controversial figure, and apparently "Handling of child sexual abuse cases by clergy while archbishop" and "Allegations of child sexual abuse" doesn't get the message across enough, so identifying that the Lord Mayor of Sydney at the time didn't attend his funeral makes it clear how the public felt about him. BoldGnome (talk) 05:30, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Hythlodayau, the list is not arbitrary: it follows reliable sources. The Sydney Morning Herald report states at its end that the Lord Mayor of Sydney had attended the funeral of Pell's predecessor. One could OR about many people closely associated with Pell. Errantios (talk) 12:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you all. I have made the change, adding a link to Hyde Park. Errantios (talk) 23:59, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Reference to Tim Minchin

Hi,

I would like to alter the sentences that reference Tim Minchin. To demonstrate the depth of thinking and consideration I have given towards this small section of this article, I am giving a very detailed explanation of the reasoning for the changes I would like to make. I am deeply aware of the sensitivity surrounding George Pell, and I am enusring I approach this with an abundance of sensitivity to all, as well as being respectful towards Wikipedia processes by providing a lengthy, detailed description of the two items I would like to change and explaining my thinking prior to making any changes.

The current sentences reads:

"The musician Tim Minchin released the song "Come Home (Cardinal Pell)", with all proceeds to go to the GoFundMe campaign. The song described Pell as "scum" and a "coward". Within 24 hours it had over 400,000 views on YouTube and became the number one position on the iTunes song chart in Australia. In the event, Pell's testimony was witnessed by 15 victims of child sexual abuse and their supporters."

The following describe the improvements & alterations I would like to make:

1: Item..."The musician Tim Minchin"

1. Reasoning.. The linked Tim Minchin Wikipedia article accurately describes Tim as far more than a 'musician,' & his role in making the Come Home song included his talents as a composer, writer, comedian, & actor. More importantly and relevant to his Come Home song is his being a "staunch upholder of rationalism, secularism, and scientific scepticism."(quote is attributed to Richard Dawkins)

Tim had written and performed many pieces as far back as 2005 that overtly criticised & critiqued religion. Highly relevant to this matter is Tim Minchin's 2010 song "white wine in the sun". This song was used by the Salvation Army in its Christmas fundraising CD despite Tim's lyrics clearly stating that Tim did not believe in Jesus and dislikes religion's role in the education of children. A quote from that song reads, "I have all of the usual objections to the miseducation of children who, in tax-exempt institutions, are taught to externalise blame and to feel ashamed and to judge things as plain right or wrong".

The reader should be made aware the song was made by a well-known atheist who had written and performed many pieces that detailed his issues with religion, and his highly reasoned explanations have earned him the Richard Dawkins Award.

1. Change.... For the reasons explained above, I feel it is inaccurate to describe Tim Minchin as just a musician.

I would like to change the wording to include the words used in the Wikipedia article on Tim Minchin and draw attention to Minchin's popularity & history, which is what gave the song so much oxygen & fed the controversy. For ease of reading, I have reproduced the whole reference and used the strikethrough to show the text I would remove and italicised text to show what I would add:

The musician Tim Minchin released "Tim Minchin, the highly acclaimed secularist, rationalist, actor, writer, musician, poet, composer, songwriter and comedian, produced the song "Come Home (Cardinal Pell)" with all proceeds to go to the GoFundMe campaign. The song described Pell as "scum" and a "coward". Within 24 hours it had over 400,000 views on YouTube and became the number one position on the iTunes song chart in Australia.[168][169] In the event, Pell's testimony was witnessed by 15 victims of child sexual abuse and their supporters.[170]

2: Item...."The song described Pell as "scum" and a "coward".

2. Reasoning.... The singling out of two of the five hundred words without context is likely to mislead the reader and lose the intent of the song. The article would be better served by describing the song by its genre and intent.

To illustrate the missing context, I've included the opening paragraph, which sets the scene for why Tim is producing the song.

I know what it’s like when you feel a little shitty
You just want to curl up and have an itty bitty doona day
But a lot of people here really miss you Georgie
They really think you oughta just get on a plane
(Just get on a plane)

With this context in mind, I will illustrate the problem the singing out of 'coward' & 'scum'.

-Regarding the word "coward". The use of the word "coward" is Tim saying George's unwillingness to return to Australia makes him a coward in Tim's eye's. The lyrics read;

But your ethical hypocrisy
Your intellectual vacuity
And your arrogance don't bother me as much
As the fact that you have turned out to be such
A goddamn coward

-Regarding the "scum". The use of the word "scum" is Tim comparing the strength of the sexual abuse survivors to tell their stories makes George's choice to prioritise his role as the head of all the Vatican & Holy See's financial activities over returning to Australia is what made him scum in Tim's eyes. The lyrics read;

And years later, when survivors
Stood up to tell their stories
You spent year after year
Working hard to protect the church's assets
I mean, with all due respect, dude
I think you're scum

-What is the song? The song itself is a Protest song which taps into the issue of religion being given special treatment despite the separation of church and state being enshrined in the constitution. The issue of the church having its own Canon law which contradicts the laws and societal norms giving them a sense of entitlement to put themselves above all others has given rise to many forms of protests.

2. Change.. For the reasons explained above, I think the article would be improved by referencing the song in terms of its genre/intent and subsequent contraversy. For ease of reading, I have reproduced the whole reference and used the strikethrough to show the text I would remove and italicised text to show what I would add:

The musician Tim Minchin released "Tim Minchin, the highly acclaimed secularist, rationalist, actor, writer, musician, poet, composer, songwriter and comedian, produced the song "Come Home (Cardinal Pell)" with all proceeds going to the GoFundMe campaign. The song described Pell as "scum" and a "coward".The contraversal protest song was praised by Richard Dawkins saying "quite apart from displaying his musical gifts as composer and pianist, also affirms his commitment to justice" while being lauded as "a prime example of the power music has to project a political message into the public sphere". The songs critics included George Pell who defended his decision to remain in Rome to give evidence. Within 24 hours it had over 400,000 views on YouTube and became the number one position on the iTunes song chart in Australia. In the event, Pell's testimony was witnessed by 15 victims of child sexual abuse and their supporters.

Proposed Change: Here is how the new sentences would read.

Tim Minchin, the highly acclaimed secularist, rationalist, actor, writer, musician, poet, composer, songwriter and comedian, produced the song "Come Home (Cardinal Pell)" with all proceeds to go to the GoFundMe campaign. The contraversal protest song was praised by Richard Dawkins saying "quite apart from displaying his musical gifts as composer and pianist, also affirms his commitment to justice", and lauded as "a prime example of the power music has to project a political message into the public sphere". The songs critics included George Pell who defended his decision to remain in Rome to give evidence. Within 24 hours it had over 400,000 views on YouTube and became the number one position on the iTunes song chart in Australia. In the event, Pell's testimony was witnessed by 15 victims of child sexual abuse and their supporters.

Final note: While this is a small change, I recognise they do overlap with highly sensitive issues, I hope my proposed changes are seen as being respectful to these topics.

Regards

AusPolSci (talk) 15:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC) AusPolSci (talk) 15:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose: the song is of small significance in the story. This information could be added to articles on Minchin and even on the song itself. Errantios (talk) 23:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC)